Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

How does rich of peak mean un-burnt fuel is in your exhaust?

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Read this link

Fuel Air Ratio

Not so much un-burnt fuel, but fuel oxidized less efficiently (more carbon monoxide, less carbon dioxide, result being less power per carbon).

This article emphasizes why an engine monitor is a good idea no matter how you run your engine.

And all of that "modern engine management" stuff is not yet in our plane engines...

Eric Johnson
2005 Saratoga II TC
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N392HP

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Hello:


   I was wondering if you have had any problems with hot starts?  Last week I ran my battery down and had to get a jump.  When taxieing after landing do you keep the aux fuel pump running until shutdown?  At shut down I usually allow the TIT to get to around 857 before sutting down. If I am doing a hot start, I set throttle to 1 inch and full lean until it acts like it is starting and then move to full rich.  I am not sure if I flooded it or not.  Can you tell me your experience with your 99 TC?

Thanks,

Kelley Douglas

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Never occurred to me to leave the aux pump on to further cool the engine. During the summer in Ohio, I can't get my '01 II TC below 980 before shut down.

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

The fuel pump on does enrichen the mixture a bit at idle.  I suppose that this will cool the engine a bit, but for me more of an issue of fowling the plugs.  For that reason my habit is turn the pump off right after I lean the mixture after landing.  Probably does not matter, I suppose.  I have noticed that at high altitude runways better to keep the pump on.  Don't ask me why.  Engine just idles a little better.

As for hot starts, the best advice I ever received on this topic was that "anything but a cold engine is a hot start".

Throttle at about 1 inch sounds about right.  Start with pump on, full lean.  But for me the engine starts well before full rich, more like about half way up.  Perhaps you are enriching too fast.  Move the mixture up slowly.

If flooded, just keep it full lean for a couple of start attempts.

Eric Johnson
2005 Saratoga II TC
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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Would like to get this string going again after so many years!  Just bought a 2001 Turbo Saratoga with 1700 hours, GAMI injectors and an EDM700.  So the POH says CHT is 500 max, but keeping below 435 will extend cylinder life.  TIT is max 1650 or you can melt your turbo.  The EDM book says leaning to peak EGT and then going rich 50-100 degrees can cause TIT to exceed 1650 in some turbos.   With the above, I have been running 30" and 2300RPM which shows as 70% power on the Piper engine control.  The book talks about leaning to 16.5GPH at certain altitudes and OAT and 19.0GPH to when you're high and it's hot.

I ran my Turbo Arrow with analog gauges and ran 50 degrees rich and made it to 1435 hours when I sold it with an F model TSIO360 engine.  I never worried about TIT because I didn't have a gauge, only single probe CHT and EGT.

Trying to figure out how to lean ROP properly without exceeding 1650 TIT, or does it even matter? Also, the factory Piper engine monitor shows a TIT that is 50 degrees less than the EDM700.

Roger Welling
N325PA
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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Interesting discussion, Roger.  While my Seneca has different engines, TSIO-360EB's, they're both turbo charged and similar in that way.  I don't have GAMI's or an engine monitor.  I do have TIT and single probe CHT's. At about 70 percent power I'm running 31" MP, 2400 RPM and I'm leaned to 11.5 GPH.  My CHT's are at the high end of the green but definitely green (that's about all you can tell), and my TIT is about 1,350 to 1,400 well below 1600.  At this power setting about pushing 170 kts down low and 185 up high.  If I climb too long or I'm low in the summer my CHT will climb up to the top of green and I'll open the cowl flaps, shallow out the climb (if I'm climbing) and enrich the mixture.  Does this help?

Scott Sherer
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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

I happened to stumble upon this thread and I wrote the following up for a friend a few months ago on how I operate my 1981 Turbo Saratoga.  These procedures seem to work well but I'm interested in feedback from others who have more experience than me.  I've owned my Saratoga almost 3 years and still feel like I'm learning about it everytime I fly.

I have a JPI 830 engine monitor and it is by far one of the most valuable tools in the airplane.  I don't know how people managed with just one CHT/EGT gauge as things are very dynamic.  Here is how I manage in each of the stages of flight.

Ground - I will lean slightly on the ground until I get an RPM rise usually only seeing a few GPH on the ground.

Takeoff - Mixture full rich, Prop full (2650 RPM), Increase manifold pressure to around 36".  I can't go full throttle or I will see overboost at 36.5".  If I do see overboost light I will back off on throttle slightly.

Climbout - As I climb through a few hundred feet I will back off prop to 2500 RPM and keep mixture full rich.  I can easily climb at about 800'/min and around 105-110 knots.  I keep adjusting the throttle to maintain around 32".  This is where the turbo is really nice because you can maintain the good climb rate all the way up.  I've taken mine as high as 17,000.  During the climb I'm watching temperatures.  CHTs are in the 350-390 degree range and EGTs can be in the 1200-1300 degree range.  I really watch TiT though and read somewhere to target around 1290 when less than 10,000' and around 1270 for 10-17,000'.  I try to get greedy and lean but have found that temps quickly rise if you lean even a little.  I've read a lot about this and the recommendations were just to keep mixture rich all the way up.  In my Archer I used to lean in the climb to increase performance but in this plane with the turbo it isn't needed. 

Cruise - Once I level out and my speed starts coming up I have a couple of different combinations.  For best speed I set prop at 2400 RPM and then throttle around 28" MP.  I'm really looking at the % power on the JPI though and getting it to 75%.  I can then lean in this configuration to 20 GPH.  I'm watching CHTs very closely during this and 390 is my target point.  If I try to get greedy I will start to see my #3 cylinder creep up to 390 and then I need to add a bit of fuel to cool it down.  This has been variable depending on my flight, altitude, OAT etc but I'd say it is consistently between 19.5-20.5 GPH.  In my plane I can true out at 155 knots below about 9000' but can get as high as around 165 knots at the higher altitudes.  This is all ROP operations when I'm going for a lot of speed.

Depending on how fast I want to get there I may cruise at 24/24 which is about 60-65% power for me.  I can get around 16.5 GPH at this configuration using 390 as my max temp.  I don't freak out if it goes above 390 but definitely take action with 400-405 being the point that I try to never let it go above.  At this configuration I can cruise around 140-145 knots. 

I have tried LOP before and I was able to get it there but only wanted to try this at low power.  The lowest I ever got was around 14 GPH and around 55% power.  I have the stock injectors now but talked with the GAMI people at Oshkosh last year.  It is around $1200 for this engine plus install for the GAMIs.  I may investigate at some point but $2000 is a lot of fuel.

Descent - I have never really had shock cooling issues on descent before.  I've ready to try to reduce MP at a rate of 1"/min.  There is a gauge on the JPI that shows the shock cooling and I've never really had it go into a range that concerns me.  I do try to keep MP above 15" even during the approach as I've read this is important with turbos.

After landing - I've read it is important to keep the engine running and let the oil cool a bit after landing and keep the turbo running for a bit after landing.  I will typically taxi back at idle and take my time during this and then even let it sit for a bit prior to cutting mixture to shutdown.

There is a great sequence of articles that I read/studied multiple times when I first purchased the plane.  Here is the link: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182102-1.html

________________________________________________________________________________________
Jeff Frey - http://www.thefreyfamily.net
"It's your attitude, not your aptitude, that determines your altitude." - Fortune Cookie

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Re: Saratoga TC II Leaning Procedure

Hi Jeff,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write your forum message.  It is full of information that I'm sure other members will appreciate.

Scott Sherer
N344TB - Piper Seneca
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