PA-28 Family cabin dimensions
Hi All - new to the society.
I am currently working with two partners to purchase an Arrow, Arrow II or Arrow III. We have done some research to narrow down to these 3 models and all 3 meet our nominal mission. The one aspect we are not certain of is cabin size. We understand that the fuselage was stretched 5 inches going from the Arrow to Arrow II. We understand that the Arrows are essentially the same airframe as early Cherokee/Warriors. We have access to a Cherokee (PA-28-140) and to a Warrior (PA-28-151). We know that the cabin of the -140 is too small and that the -151 is ok for us. We do not know if any of the Arrow line (specifically PA-28R-180, -200 or -201) has a cabin that directly matches the -151. The idea is to nArrow down whether we should consider the PA-28R-180 in our searching or if we need to limit to -200/-201. I've done some searching in the forums for cabin dimensions and the like, but have come up dry. Can anyone help either directly or by pointing us to an authoritative resource to answer this question?
A secondary but also important point: The partnership is planning to operate out of KSCH and would still like 1 more member. If anyone may be interested in that, please reply here or email me at mpape.home@gmail.com
-Mark
Comments
Might consider going database diving and seeing what the FAA shows as candidate planes in the area, or within a couple hours drive. From there, write a nice letter to the respective owners asking to visit the plane and why. Including some sort of nominal gift card will help improve the response rate.
While the database will show the owner's location, it is fairly easy to reason that the plane is not too far away.
Point is, playing around with spec measurements is nice, but nothing beats exposure to the actual. Especially when trying to find the fine line between adequate, and cramped. As a lose analogy, I have gotten rid of tow vehicles which on paper could handle the load, but actual road manners were not acceptable.
Unless you just have to have a sexy folding gear plane, I’d be looking at Archers. Same plane, a few knots slower, much less MX and insurance.
I know you didn’t ask. But I have owned and flown both and I’ll take the Archer any day over the Arrow. To me it’s a no brainer. Buy an Archer, do all the K2U speed mods and laugh at how much you are saving each month.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Good feedback jacobsja and Unit74. Thanks both
Sure rub it in, if I did not pay for insurance and parts I could fly.
The Arrow or Arrow 1 if you will is short cabin. The Arrow II got 5 inches more all in the back seat.
Me being a 90’s sex symbol I must have the folding gear and my total sex symbol Arrow II.
Have you found a plane to look at yet?
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
Lulz…..😂
I’m in the same boat. I’ve spent $70k over two years and have 1.1 hours on the Hobbes with this plane. And it’s still broken.
I brought home my T Lance last Sat and I’m AOG again with a fuel leak.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Lots of planes to look at Resq5hvy; no problem there. The partnership is not quite ready to pull the trigger yet though. We'd like one more member but while we're beating the bushes, we are also setting up the LLC and operating agreement. All this work to discriminate between the Arrow, II and III is to help us move efficiently once that's done. What would be a big help for us is if we could authoritatively identify something like: Piper Arrow (PA-28R-180) cabin and baggage area is the same as Piper (PA-28-xxx). We have better access to local examples of the PA-28-xxx than PA-28R-xxx.
I have a PA28R-200, 1973 model. I like the Arrow II straight wing others like the longer wing.
What can I do to help you? I live in Columbus, Ohio. My plane lives at KLHQ. What do you need. I know a fellow Piper owner on the field with a tapered wing Archer and I have the Hershey Bar wing Arrow.
Griff lives in the Chicago area but I cannot volunteer him, I can make myself available for you to view my Arrow. You may fly my plane if you come down to Columbus. If you have a good restaurant maybe we can fly up there.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
I am not that bad off, other having surgery to remove more money from my pocket. At least we made Sun N Blister and home with only minor issues. I think it will fly if I go visit with it.
I really wanted a T Tail Turbo Lance….till I saw the price for engine parts. I will fly my 4 banger for $48, 000 Alex while my friend take 6 slugs and $105,000 for the same rebuild. What is crazy not stupid? After all I am just teaching kids to fly and getting hamburgers and sunburns.
One kid plans to fly for NetJets, second generation the other is going to be a gentleman farmer, crop duster and fly off to get by then a $500 hamburger when he can beat the airline pilot off the controls.
I am not saying everything works in my Arrow, after all I have Garmin stuff. Only 33% of their stuff is MEL’ed, likely to time out to a CDL then necessitating it being removed and sent back to them, only the 3rd one that has not worked. What is $4,000 to a mega company and a retired aircraft dispatcher. They need the money far more.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
Hi Resq5hvy - thanks so much for the offer. We’re pretty comfortable that we’d be good with the Arrow II. A big help for us would be to understand if the Arrow II cabin and luggage area are the same as the PA-28-151 Warrior (or the same as some other fixed gear PA-28) Since we know that the II is stretched from the Arrow, that would be another way for us to decide if the base Arrow would also work for us.
I believe they are the same. They are bigger than the Arrow 1 by 5 inches between the back seat and front seats.
I am 6’6” and my wife or daughter can sit behind me no trouble at all, they are 5’8”. I can sit in the back behind them I just must be very careful not to ran my head into the ceiling.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
Do you have an Arrow in mind?
My Arrow is in this months mag, Bringing an Arrow II Back To Life. I dumped a metric shit-ton of cash in it. I have a plane my wife and I can fly, not too far into the computer age us old folks who learned to fly in the 80’s can still understand stuff and a plane our kids can learn to fly. The CFI did not want G3x that does all the instrument work for them but it still has everything needed for us to fly in WX down to 500 and 1without any worries.
I am an idiot, I wanted a T tail Arrow or T tail Lance. Don’t be stupid, get a low tail.
Now several friend say they will not fly anything but my 50 year old Arrow. I documented everything that was fixed and that it was fixed better than new. Then we spent last year trying to find ways to fail systems. We did a lot of rewiring and new hydraulics and we are down to my alternator belt failing more often than we like. Once that is fixed my wallet is the limit and finding a way to take 9 cats and 2 horses with the 4 of us in a 4 seat plane. I am rated in a 727 but my wife said I was not allowed to buy one. That is the only way I could figure out how to take the family all in one plane.
We are starting to do out and backs, the speed of the Arrow is very noticeable when flying with others. My friend with the M350 does not arrive too much ahead of us, just enough time for him to get a table or setup a ride. Friends with 172’s or Archers we try to stay together but it can be difficult. My emergency gear extension has dropped a few times trying to slow down to hang with an Archer with a climb prop. Pulled the throttle back too far. We have begun just going ahead. When flying alone we cover ground fast.
Good luck on your hunt. We really enjoy our Arrow.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
I'm intrigued on comments dissing the T-tails...I love my Lance II T-tail...room for my wife to stretch out, speed, has legs (only limited by the bladder), and fly's well. What's not to love!!
I love the T tails as well. The CFI’s tell me that the lack of prop wash necessitates greater speed control to maintain full control during landing, something a new or inexperienced pilot may not have.
Like I said before I found my Arrow II, I was hunting a T tail Lance or Arrow IV’s, I tried to get one very hard for myself. Until I know a pilots abilities I tend to not encourage the T tail. I don’t want to be the one that sends them over to the dark side, Vref+10-20 into a wet 2500’ runway at night. The book says the plane can do it but can the pilot?
If I discourage the T tails then there are more for me.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
We have the Arrow family in mind for sure. We’d prefer Arrow II to get the extra 5”, but keep seeing Arrow (I)s showing up in our price range. Thanks for all the great feedback. I’ll post more when we make some serious headway.
The Arrow 1 came in 180 and 200 HP options, the 180’s command the least price.
My advice is buy an airframe and engine. Get one that has avoided flight schools as much as possible and has a fresher engine. You can redo the seats and carpet. Adding electronics as you go is easy. From what I hear an engine is a 1 year wait electronics can be 2-3 months now down from the 14 months 2 years ago. New interior in just a few months. I put in G5’s, GI275 and a G355 GPS/COM, no one notices those, they see the new high back seats and wall panels.
The wing spar is a killer. Buying a plane with low factored hours is a huge advantage. My Arrow had 4790 when I bought it but only 1880 factored hours.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
Understood...I cut my teeth on a PA28-235C which I owned for 10-years...With its big 540 out front makes stepping into a Lance a smooth transition...I hope someday you find the Lance of your dreams...
Graypape:
As Resq mentioned, I am in the Chgo area. You are welcome to swing by and check out/compare my Warrior II for your family needs. The Warrior is not the fastest plane on the ramp, but it's very capable and hauls a lot of stuff. The welded gear keeps the insurance premiums low. The Arrow series is more capable and faster, so you're on the right track with your search.
I don't know where you're located, but I'm at 06C. Send me a PM if you're interested.
Jim "Doc Griff" Griffin
PA28 - 161
Chicago area
Thank you for the kind words of my future Lance. I think my dream Lance left the factory in 1979. Very low time, excellent paint, like new interior, all for under $90,000. I cannot consider my Arrow as cash or trade value, my daughter, her future husband, my friend and CFI Doug and everyone at the local FBO along with the owner of the flight school have said if I ever want to sell it… My kids, daughter and S-I-L, have said it is their plane, Doug would buy it in a heart beat and really wants it but is trying to buy a house to start a family.
My Arrow has the same protected status as our horses, they are family. Future S-I-L who has my Jeep, the one I hand built over 10 years, is showing his friends the Arrow. It went from last year this is my girlfriends dads plane to now this is my 1973 Piper Arrow, with new Garmin electronics and a new interior, I am still looking at paint options. That last part made me happy, no one said that dad is paying for the repaint…yet.
The kids did say I am welcome to add a Lance or M350 to the fleet but they all think a Kodiak 100 would be a better fit for our operational needs, something to support the Arrow and Jeep when they take their toys out to play. They also mentioned we need a small bush plane, Jeep with wings, KitFox or something large enough I fit in it without having to move things that don’t move.
The best part is future S-I-L comes from a farming family. His dad is thinking about getting into crop dusting now that they have seen that my future S-I-L really can fly a plane. They are working on the location of a runway and hangar on the farm. They are looking at a 200X200 hangar, heated, to fit farm toys and aircraft and a very special Jeep. I was asked how long of a runway I think is needed for the Arrow. I said 3,500 feet, answer oh, that’s no problem.
After just 2 years of ownership the Arrow has become a family heirloom.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
Just as @griff390 said all y’all are welcome to come by and checkout my Arrow II. I am near Columbus, Ohio KLHQ Lancaster, Fairfield County. If my insured friends are not able to fly with you, as long as you have an Arrow sign off in your logs I can fly with you. They took my medical so a responsible adult must be PIC. It was very difficult getting insurance when you can’t get a medical.
You are welcome to see if you like the interior size and handling of the Arrow II are what you need. There is even a T tail Arrow IV on the field that I am not permitted to lust after that we likely can look at but not fly.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.
I have an Arrow, Pa28r-180, have owned her since October, 1978, three blade prop, full Garmin IFR, G5, GFC 500 autopilot, G3x, gtn 750xi, remote audio panel, Stromscope 1000E with a Shaden converter from analog to digital, 830 engine monitor, all the K2You kits, extended wing kit, Shaden fuel flow, with the auto gear extend still functional and more and would not trade her for any other. The extra 5 inches of space would be nice to have, but with just me and my wife flying at altitude using less than 10 gph is really economical and enjoyable. The plane is as easy to fly as any fixed gear, non-variable prop plane on the market and is almost impossible to stall (the GFC 500 also helps there).
You just described why I bought my Arrow, easy to fly, forgiving to learn and almost impossible to stall.
Now with me being a giant we need the 5 inches, one of the girls gets stuck behind me.
I have 2 kids learning to fly my plane, in 6 hours my 22 year old boy has figured out landing. Arrows are great planes.
1973 Arrow II factory AC removed
G5’S, G275, GNX375 Still can get lost.