Interesting there is a flat 5000-hour TIS. No formulas or anything for commercial service. Makes me wonder if there is an AD on the way. This could get bad.
I saw that too and mentally filled in the "if defects are found" without thinking about it. Otherwise the whole thing would make no sense, they should just mandate that everyone install a new spar. Why bother with the inspection?
Yay Jim! Sadly I am sitting at 4827ish but I sure have enjoyed coast to coast, multiple Bahama trips, climbing in the back to get my dry suit underwear to put on when coming back from Maine with -50 OAT. I probably put at least 2000 of that on her, so all in all, still love her.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
And there's nothing wrong with an inspection as it will give you peace of mind. And if you have to do some maintenance, well then that's what you'll do because you love your airplane. Harumph!
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
There is one fellow on this forum that does this service. I'm sure that many will pop out of the woodwork now that the service bulletin is official. Stay tuned, as soon as I have some I will post them. In the meantime, you have as much as a year to get this done.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Mark Nistler is currently the NDT Shop Manager at Signature TECHNIAir, St. Paul, MN, with a total of 23 years experience in the NDT field. He is an American Society for Nondestructive Testing (ASNT) Level III certified in four methods: magnetic particle, fluorescent penetrant, radiography, and eddy current inspections. He also holds an A&P certificate and is currently the company Level III in Ultrasonics. Mark began his aircraft maintenance career in the U.S. Air Force performing NDT inspections on military aircraft such as the F-16, F-15, C-130, and H3 helicopters. He can be contacted at mark.nistler@signatureflight.com or (651) 209-2720.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
I have a Turbo Arrow IV, 7000+ hours, about 2/3 of them spent as a trainer in a small school in the Midwest. I am based in Seattle area. Can anybody recommend an NDT specialist that operates in my part of the country? Thanks much!
Karol
Karol Zadora
PA28RT-201T Turbo Arrow IV
Seattle Area
Funny, or not so funny, I was just in the hangar with my A/P and a NDT specialist with her Olympus Nortec 500D eddy current tester today, when I went to this forum and downloaded the SB for the Arrows. As some may recall from my previous posts, my 82 Archer has in excess of 10k hours and a large number of 100 hr inspections. As it turns out, 3 of the 4 bolt holes were clear. However, the left forward hole indicated a crack. Greg, my A/P, had mentioned that the 2 left bolts had some corrosion and were difficult to remove. He had to unscrew them all the way out. The NDT specialist had some small ball hones that Greg used to clean up the hole to remove any residual corrosion that could show up as a crack, but that did not remove the indication of a crack. The crack is located at the 4-5:00 position if straight forward is 12:00. It appears in the spar, not the carry through. So even though the SB doesn't apply to our plane, we are grounded indefinitely until we figure out what to do next. I'm sure all you fellow Piper owners are sympathetic to my predicament, and I appreciate that. I'd love to hear what the group thinks we should do next. I sent an email message to airframecomponents.com to inquire about the cost of a replacement wing or repair of ours.
According to Greg, Airtractor has a similar AD or SB, and they've approved a repair method of drilling the bolt hole out until the crack is no longer detected, then installing a larger bolt in the hole. Wonder if that is a viable solution. I've attached the reading of the crack on the Eddy current testing device and a bore hole camera shot of what we think is the crack.
Spike,
That is an interesting thought about resizing. Perhaps an AMOC (Alternative method of compliance) based on the Air Tractor data? Although as a Service Bulletin, it is all controlled by Piper, if it became an AD, then someone could put forward the AMOC to the FAA for their consideration. I could easily justify it for the one bolt, if say, the next largest size hole eliminated any sign of the crack. Two sizes? Ummm, there are experts for that. Be sure to check the forward attach bolt too!
I have a bunch of Level III ratings, sadly not eddy current (nor do I have the equipment) so I am not sure what the identifying characteristics are of your display. Does it suggest a depth of the crack?
The bolts are close-tolerance so I would imagine any AMOC would require proper drilling and reaming with again, close tolerance bolt. At first blush it certainly holds some promise.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
Thanks Scott. By the way this is your old friend Lydell up at the Anoka County airport. I’m and A&P/IA and my Arrow has never been a trainer, but being as my family flys with me all the time, I’m going to look into it. Thanks again and stay safe.
Hey Joe, So the spikes in the readout indicate the crack. On the other 3 holes, the EKG (so to speak) was a a flat line. But on the left fwd bolt hole there was these spikes. The device is a little probe, almost like a spinning periscope, that is inserted from the bottom of the bolt hole and as it is inserted up into the bolt hole, it picks up the inner surface of the hole. When the probe passes say, an interface between the layers of metal, there are 3, the carry through channel, the spar and then a thin layer of metal on the top, under the bolt head, it becomes a wavy line from one end to the other. Then when it comes across a crack or a scratch, it displays a peak and a valley. I suppose it indicates depth, but that seems to be somewhat objective since the gain is adjusted to a standard reference block with a bunch of holes. I received a quote this morning from Airframe Components to rebuild my wing. Not to exceed $10,500 less shipping and paint. Gulp. Hope there's an alternative. I'm afraid I could invest more in this plane than it's worth.
I'd hate to see you put that money in it but think about it another way. If you love your plane and plan on keeping it for a long time, then it has great value to you! If you had to buy a new plane and start over it could be many times the $10,500 to fix it. If you tried selling it without fixing it, you would only have parts value.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Aerohoff Inspection Services has performed about 65 of these inspections over the past year. We have found 3 rejections with crack-like indications. The last inspection was performed about 3 weeks ago and talking with the DER, it sounds like they want to remove the wing, oversize the wing spar hole only, bush that hole, and re-assemble. We are an FAA certified mobile repair station and can offer multi-aircraft discounts if you can gather multiple Piper 28 airplanes that need the Service Bulletin inspection, in the same/near-by airports. Again we come to you. I’m not sure where other companies are finding their indications, but interestingly we found all 3 crack-like indications in the right, forward, outboard hole. In all three cases, the indication was protruding aft. Please contact us to schedule your eddy current open hole inspection.
Jim Hofer Aerohoff Inspection Services 760-567-4123 Sales@aerohoff.com
First image below is the 0.030” x 0.030” EDM reference standard indication. Second image is the crack-like indication from the right forward outboard hole.
Jim brings some science to the table.
Jim, if I am looking at the pictures correctly, the aircraft sample exceeded the 30 thousands calibration point. In any case, if the DER information, coupled with the AirTractor prior information, it would be far more cost effective to drill, bush, close-tolerance ream for an effective and reliable (psychologically comforting) alternative to spending the $10K+ that Spike was quoted above.
Thanks Spike for the explanation.
My understanding is that unless Piper agrees, it is moot. If the FAA adopts the Piper mandatory service bulletin in an AD, then someone can petition for an AMOC based on both the AirTractor and Jim's data/DER recommendations. It is certainly more complicated than just over-sizing both the carry through and spar while the wing is in place and using an oversize close-tolerance fitting, but again, I would have to defer to the expert engineers.
Obviously we would all like an in-situ fix that did not require the wing to be removed.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
Comments
Thanks so much for the post
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
New Piper SB on wing spar inspection. I have attached the pdf version.
Jim Torley
CFI-A/I/G
1969 Arrow 200
Based at KFLY (Colorado Springs, CO)
Hi Jim, I just posted one, too.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
Interesting there is a flat 5000-hour TIS. No formulas or anything for commercial service. Makes me wonder if there is an AD on the way. This could get bad.
EDIT: I missed the part in Step 4 saying if no defects are found, proceed to Step 6
Sorry for the confusion
"If no cracks are found, return the form to Piper within 10 business days. Proceed to Step 6."
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
I saw that too and mentally filled in the "if defects are found" without thinking about it. Otherwise the whole thing would make no sense, they should just mandate that everyone install a new spar. Why bother with the inspection?
EDIT: I jumped the gun.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
Oh absolutely, after pointing it out, I want it in writing too. I was merely remarking that I filled in the blanks without even realizing it.
Well, I was a dummy!
Step 4 has: "If no cracks are found, return the form to Piper within 10 business days. Proceed to Step 6."
Sorry, but lots of us Arrow owners are a bit jittery.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
interesting that it is just for the Arrows.
My Arrow has only 3738 hours TT and at the rate I fly (maybe 75 hours/year) I would be 94 when it is due to be inspected! Ain't gonna worry about it!!
Jim Torley
CFI-A/I/G
1969 Arrow 200
Based at KFLY (Colorado Springs, CO)
Yay Jim! Sadly I am sitting at 4827ish but I sure have enjoyed coast to coast, multiple Bahama trips, climbing in the back to get my dry suit underwear to put on when coming back from Maine with -50 OAT. I probably put at least 2000 of that on her, so all in all, still love her.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
And there's nothing wrong with an inspection as it will give you peace of mind. And if you have to do some maintenance, well then that's what you'll do because you love your airplane. Harumph!
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
any thoughts on why just Arrows? Aren't the wing spars the same on most of the PA28 models?
Andy Sikora
1972 PA28R-200
X51
Retired Miami ATCT/Tracon
That's a very good question and one I don't have an answer for so it would appear that there is something unique to the Arrow.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
There is one fellow on this forum that does this service. I'm sure that many will pop out of the woodwork now that the service bulletin is official. Stay tuned, as soon as I have some I will post them. In the meantime, you have as much as a year to get this done.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
Here's one in Minnesota:
Mark Nistler is currently the NDT Shop Manager at Signature TECHNIAir, St. Paul, MN, with a total of 23 years experience in the NDT field. He is an American Society for Nondestructive Testing (ASNT) Level III certified in four methods: magnetic particle, fluorescent penetrant, radiography, and eddy current inspections. He also holds an A&P certificate and is currently the company Level III in Ultrasonics. Mark began his aircraft maintenance career in the U.S. Air Force performing NDT inspections on military aircraft such as the F-16, F-15, C-130, and H3 helicopters. He can be contacted at mark.nistler@signatureflight.com or (651) 209-2720.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
Even though I have a bit over 4800 hours on the bird, I am going to wait. I smell the (presumptive) wording of an AD.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
I have a Turbo Arrow IV, 7000+ hours, about 2/3 of them spent as a trainer in a small school in the Midwest. I am based in Seattle area. Can anybody recommend an NDT specialist that operates in my part of the country? Thanks much!
Karol
Karol Zadora
PA28RT-201T Turbo Arrow IV
Seattle Area
Funny, or not so funny, I was just in the hangar with my A/P and a NDT specialist with her Olympus Nortec 500D eddy current tester today, when I went to this forum and downloaded the SB for the Arrows. As some may recall from my previous posts, my 82 Archer has in excess of 10k hours and a large number of 100 hr inspections. As it turns out, 3 of the 4 bolt holes were clear. However, the left forward hole indicated a crack. Greg, my A/P, had mentioned that the 2 left bolts had some corrosion and were difficult to remove. He had to unscrew them all the way out. The NDT specialist had some small ball hones that Greg used to clean up the hole to remove any residual corrosion that could show up as a crack, but that did not remove the indication of a crack. The crack is located at the 4-5:00 position if straight forward is 12:00. It appears in the spar, not the carry through. So even though the SB doesn't apply to our plane, we are grounded indefinitely until we figure out what to do next. I'm sure all you fellow Piper owners are sympathetic to my predicament, and I appreciate that. I'd love to hear what the group thinks we should do next. I sent an email message to airframecomponents.com to inquire about the cost of a replacement wing or repair of ours.
According to Greg, Airtractor has a similar AD or SB, and they've approved a repair method of drilling the bolt hole out until the crack is no longer detected, then installing a larger bolt in the hole. Wonder if that is a viable solution. I've attached the reading of the crack on the Eddy current testing device and a bore hole camera shot of what we think is the crack.
mike
Spike,
That is an interesting thought about resizing. Perhaps an AMOC (Alternative method of compliance) based on the Air Tractor data? Although as a Service Bulletin, it is all controlled by Piper, if it became an AD, then someone could put forward the AMOC to the FAA for their consideration. I could easily justify it for the one bolt, if say, the next largest size hole eliminated any sign of the crack. Two sizes? Ummm, there are experts for that. Be sure to check the forward attach bolt too!
I have a bunch of Level III ratings, sadly not eddy current (nor do I have the equipment) so I am not sure what the identifying characteristics are of your display. Does it suggest a depth of the crack?
The bolts are close-tolerance so I would imagine any AMOC would require proper drilling and reaming with again, close tolerance bolt. At first blush it certainly holds some promise.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement
Thanks again and stay safe.
Hey Joe, So the spikes in the readout indicate the crack. On the other 3 holes, the EKG (so to speak) was a a flat line. But on the left fwd bolt hole there was these spikes. The device is a little probe, almost like a spinning periscope, that is inserted from the bottom of the bolt hole and as it is inserted up into the bolt hole, it picks up the inner surface of the hole. When the probe passes say, an interface between the layers of metal, there are 3, the carry through channel, the spar and then a thin layer of metal on the top, under the bolt head, it becomes a wavy line from one end to the other. Then when it comes across a crack or a scratch, it displays a peak and a valley. I suppose it indicates depth, but that seems to be somewhat objective since the gain is adjusted to a standard reference block with a bunch of holes. I received a quote this morning from Airframe Components to rebuild my wing. Not to exceed $10,500 less shipping and paint. Gulp. Hope there's an alternative. I'm afraid I could invest more in this plane than it's worth.
I'd hate to see you put that money in it but think about it another way. If you love your plane and plan on keeping it for a long time, then it has great value to you! If you had to buy a new plane and start over it could be many times the $10,500 to fix it. If you tried selling it without fixing it, you would only have parts value.
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
We are an FAA certified mobile repair station and can offer multi-aircraft discounts if you can gather multiple Piper 28 airplanes that need the Service Bulletin inspection, in the same/near-by airports. Again we come to you. I’m not sure where other companies are finding their indications, but interestingly we found all 3 crack-like indications in the right, forward, outboard hole. In all three cases, the indication was protruding aft.
Please contact us to schedule your eddy current open hole inspection.
Jim Hofer
Aerohoff Inspection Services
760-567-4123
Sales@aerohoff.com
First image below is the 0.030” x 0.030” EDM reference standard indication. Second image is the crack-like indication from the right forward outboard hole.
~4% failure rate is not comforting to say the least. Getting mine done this Monday..
Thanks Jim for your insights .
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Aviation Director, Piper Owner Society Forum Moderator and Pipers Author.
Need help? Let me know!
Jim brings some science to the table.
Jim, if I am looking at the pictures correctly, the aircraft sample exceeded the 30 thousands calibration point. In any case, if the DER information, coupled with the AirTractor prior information, it would be far more cost effective to drill, bush, close-tolerance ream for an effective and reliable (psychologically comforting) alternative to spending the $10K+ that Spike was quoted above.
Thanks Spike for the explanation.
My understanding is that unless Piper agrees, it is moot. If the FAA adopts the Piper mandatory service bulletin in an AD, then someone can petition for an AMOC based on both the AirTractor and Jim's data/DER recommendations. It is certainly more complicated than just over-sizing both the carry through and spar while the wing is in place and using an oversize close-tolerance fitting, but again, I would have to defer to the expert engineers.
Obviously we would all like an in-situ fix that did not require the wing to be removed.
1974 Arrow II
ATP CFII MEI CFIG A&P AGII FCC GROL with Radar Endorsement